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BILL BENSON:
Good afternoon, and welcome to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. My name is Bill Benson and I am the host of the museum’s public program, First Person. Thank you for joining us today. We are in our ninth year of First Person. Our First Person today is Mr. Fritz Gluckstein, and you shall meet Fritz shortly.
First Person is a series of weekly conversations with survivors of the Holocaust, who share with us their firsthand accounts of their experience during the Holocaust. Each First Person guest presently serves as a volunteer here at the museum.
With few exceptions, we will have a First Person program each Wednesday through August 27th. In June and July, we will also have First Person programs on Thursdays. The museum’s website at www.USHMM.org provides a list of upcoming First Person guests. If you go to the website, click on First Person.
This 2008 season of First Person is made possible through the generosity of the Louis and Dora Smith Foundation, to whom we are grateful for again sponsoring First Person. I’d like to let you know that Mr. Louis Smith is here in the audience with us today.
Fritz Gluckstein will share his First Person account of his experience during the Holocaust and as a survivor for about 45 minutes. If time allows, we will have an opportunity for you to ask some questions of Fritz. Before you are introduced to him, I have several requests of you and a couple of announcements. First, if it is at all possible, we ask that you stay with us through the one-hour program, particularly given the crowd that we have today. That will minimize any disruptions for Fritz as he speaks.
Second, if we do have time for questions and answers at the close of our program, I ask that you make your question as brief as possible. I will repeat the question so all in the room, including Fritz, can hear your question, and then he will respond to it. If you have a cell phone or a pager that has not yet been turned off, we ask that you do that now.
I’d also like to let any of you who may hold passes for today, for the Permanent Exhibition, know that they are good through the afternoon, so you can stay with us to the end, and then go to the Permanent Exhibition.
In January, the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum announced that it began providing information to Holocaust survivors and their families from the International Tracing Service (ITS) Archive. Located in Germany, the archive was the largest, closed Holocaust archive in the world, containing information on approximately 17.5 million victims of the Nazis, both Jews and non-Jews.
After years of effort, the archive has been opened to the museum. The ITS material is being transferred in digital form to the museum in a series of installments, the first of which arrived in August 2007. More information on the ITS collection can be found on the museum’s website, or by visiting the museum’s Benjamin and Vladka Meed Registry of Holocaust Survivors that is located in the Wexner Learning Center on the second floor.
The Holocaust was a state-sponsored, systematic persecution and annihilation of European Jewry by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between 1933 and 1945. Jews were the primary victims; six million were murdered. Gypsies, the handicapped and Poles were also targeted for destruction or decimation for racial, ethnic or national reasons.
Millions more, including homosexuals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Soviet prisoners of war, and political dissidents also suffered grievous oppression and death under Nazi tyranny. What you are about to hear from Fritz Gluckstein is one individual’s account of the Holocaust. We have prepared a brief slide presentation to help with Fritz’s introduction.
We begin with this photo of Fritz Gluckstein, who was born in Berlin, Germany on January 24, 1927. Fritz was the son of a Jewish judge and Christian mother, Georg and Hedwig Gluckstein. Here we see Fritz with his mother and father. These three contemporary photos show places where Fritz lived, attended school and played.
As a child, Fritz enjoyed the companionship of friends in school gatherings. Here we see a picture of Jewish children at a celebration of the holiday Purim that was likely taken in 1931. After the Nazis came to power. Fritz’s father lost his job as a judge.
Because of his father and mother’s backgrounds, Fritz was considered a Geltungsjude, a “counted Jew,” and we’ll hear more about that a little bit later. Here we see an arrow on Fritz in this photograph. In this next photo, we see German troops parading in Berlin.
In 1942, Fritz’s Jewish school was closed and he was sent to work at a Jewish cemetery. Later he was forced to work in a factory, and then in a clean-up crew for after air raids. Throughout these difficult times, Elfride Dressler, Fritz’s aunt, provided the Glucksteins with much-needed extra food as their rations continued to decrease. Here in this photo, we see Fritz with his Aunt Elfride.
At the end of the war, Fritz’s parents stayed in Germany and Georg Gluckstein resumed his career as a judge. This photo is of Fritz and his parents, taken in the summer of 1945. Fritz decided to immigrate on his own to the United States and arrived in the U.S. in 1948, where he studied veterinary medicine. We close with this contemporary photo of Fritz.
Today, Fritz lives in the Washington, D.C. area with his wife, Maran. Following his arrival in the United States after the war, he eventually became a doctor of veterinary science. After a stint in the U.S. Army, Fritz began a long and distinguished career with the federal government, where he became an expert on diseases that are transmitted from animals to humans, such as Mad Cow disease.
I imagine, to this day, and I think Fritz will confirm this, that he’s still called upon, given all that we’ve seen in various kinds of disease as of late, called upon for his expertise after that long career. Fritz is also a self-described opera buff, as well as a football fan. He volunteers here each week at the museum, translating letters and other documents written in German, including handwritten documents.
This is particularly significant because he is among a few people who are able to read the old-style German cursive script. Fritz has a daughter, Ruth, and two granddaughters, one who is nearly ten, and another who is six years old. With that, I’d like to ask you to join me in welcoming our first person, Mr. Fritz Gluckstein.
Fritz, thank you so much for joining us and for your willingness to be our First Person today. Fritz, you were a young boy when Hitler came to power in Germany. Let’s begin today with you telling us a little bit about those years when Hitler first came to power—what it was like for you as a child, what your community was like, and what it was like for your and your family.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Well, before Hitler came to power, it was a very peaceful life. My father was a veteran—decorated veteran, quite patriotic even—taught me how to salute the flag on national holidays, and of course, since I had non-Jewish relatives, I had the best of two worlds—Christmas and Hanukkah, Passover and Easter—it really was very nice.
But in 1933, Hitler came to power; my father lost his job. The day he had to leave his office, he was told, “Don’t leave by the front gate because there is an assembly of storm troopers.” My father said, “I came in by the front door and I’ll be leaving by the front door,” and so he did.
And so from then on, of course, things went downhill. Father lost his job, we had to move to a smaller apartment. But I want to say right here, my mother’s relatives, my non-Jewish relatives, stood by us all the years, and that was not actually the norm. In many cases, non-Jewish relatives abandoned the Jewish part.
My father’s colleagues, that’s something else. I still remember a colleague came with flowers, “Oh, so sorry. Now we have to break up any contact with you.”
BILL BENSON:
Fritz, you mentioned that your father had been a wounded war vet from the first World War. In fact, I think he was a recipient of the Iron Cross, wasn’t he?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Correct, yes.
BILL BENSON:
At what point, Fritz, did you begin to experience, in your own life, antisemitism?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Actually, I was quite fortunate. Actually, my name, Gluckstein, means “lucky stone” and you will see, I have always been lucky. For instance, at six years old I had to go to school, and this school, public school, closest to us, was an exception.
In other schools, Jewish students were harassed, segregated, had to raise their hand, sing so-called patriotic songs. But the school I went to, it was not the case. Our homeroom teacher was a Party member. He treated five other Jewish students and me like any other student.
And I might as well point out, the fact that someone was a Party member did not mean he was a Nazi or even antisemitic. Let’s say someone who worked for an insurance company, they told him, “You better join the Party or there will be no promotion and you’ll wind up in Podunk Junction.”
Well, two children, mother-in-law lived with him; what should he do? He wasn’t a hero, he was not a Nazi. When even, for instance, the famous conductor Karajan, he joined the party; well, I’m quite sure he wasn’t a Nazi, but if you want to become Generalmusikdirektor, well, you have to join the party. Many did it for economic reasons.
BILL BENSON:
You were in Berlin at the time of the 1936 Olympics. Tell us a little bit about that.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Yes. Well, about that time, ’36, already found signs at restaurants “Jews are not welcome,” special benches in the parks for Jews. All that ceased in June 1936 for the Olympic games. The moment the games were over, the signs appeared again.
BILL BENSON:
You, yourself, saw many famous athletes, but you were a kid and you were behaving like a kid. You had some mischievous moments. Why don’t you share with us a little bit, if you don’t mind?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
What we did, some of us, sat in a bus sometimes, a double-decker, and we gave a sermon: “Over here, is the Reichstag and here is the Union Station,” and of course, it was nonsense, and people were, “Oh, what is he doing?” and we really enjoyed that.
BILL BENSON:
That’s not shared to create any ideas for any youngsters here. Tell us about what education was like for you.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
After three or four years, the principal at the public school could no longer…certain elements came and he told my mother it would be a good idea to transfer to a Jewish school. More and more Jewish schools were established and I transferred to a Jewish school.
And those schools actually were German schools. They were supervised by the German education office and we learned the German history and German poetry, just like any German school, and so of course, discipline was quite German too.
For instance, if you were caught sneezing without covering your nose, all you were told, “Prost, old pig,” or laughing aloud, “ha, ha, ha,” that wasn’t permitted. You laughed silently. And slouching was not permitted either. Sometimes you talk about brainwashing. Do you realize I still can’t put my hands in my pocket? I still can’t do this. If we did that at that time, we were asked, “Ah, you’re going on a trip?” “Why, ‘Are you going on a trip?’” “Well, you packed your hands already.”
BILL BENSON:
Fritz, your father did make some attempts to get you out of Germany at that time, or early, didn’t he?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Yes.
BILL BENSON:
Tell us a little bit about this.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Yes, of course, my father first tried to emigrate, but you see, as a judge, what could he do in another country? And furthermore, there were quota systems. You had to have, first, an affidavit, and then you had a number. Only so-and-so many Germans, so-and-so many from Poland, were allowed to the United States.
Eventually, we got an affidavit from a second cousin, but by that time, well, it was too late. You couldn’t get the steamship, a ticket, and of course money was a question too. Many tried to get out. We tried to get out too, but of course, didn’t make it.
BILL BENSON:
Fritz, you were just 11 on Kristallnacht, or “The Night of the Broken Glass.” Tell us what you remember about Kristallnacht.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
I remember going to school in the morning and first saw one broken shop and thought, “Well, it may be an accident.” Then there were two or three more and then smoke coming up and I realized the windows in the Jewish stores had been broken and the synagogues were burning.
I might add a fact that this was well known—how did they know what windows to break? It was reportedly all spontaneous. No, what really happened, about a month prior to the Crystal Night, each Jewish proprietor had to have his name in long, white letters at the upper-left corner of his store window. All they had to do, go around, “Ah, here, here, here,” and broke the windows.
BILL BENSON:
Fritz, at what point did you realize that Kristallnacht didn’t just happen in Berlin, that it indeed had taken place throughout the country?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Well, we had some friends in other cities and actually, we called them. In fact, in other cities, it was much worse. It was in violence much more. In Berlin, close to the authorities, close to the center of bureaucracy, they usually did not…it was less violence.
BILL BENSON:
At that time, of course, you’re 11 and you’re still in school. You didn’t get report cards because of “special circumstances.” What was that?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Yes. I remember…of course, half of our teachers were sent to a concentration camp. At that time, at random, Jewish men were sent to concentration camps and half of our teachers, and of course, we had substitute teachers at the time for report card and, well, I remember we got a little note to take home. And I quote, “Because of the special circumstances, report cards will be late this time.”
BILL BENSON:
You told me, Fritz, that at the start of the war in September 1939, when Germany and Russia invaded Poland, it really changed things. Tell us about those changes and what really became different for you, and how quickly those changes occurred.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Well, actually, one change before in 1939, each Jew had to get an additional name, “Israel” and the women, “Sarah.” My name then was Fritz Israel Gluckstein and you had to have an identification card. Whenever you went to an office, you had to raise this identification card and announce, in a loud voice, “I am a Jew.”
And when you signed your name on an official document, it was “Fritz Israel Gluckstein, Jewish identification number so and so and so and so.” Right when the war started, ration cards came out and of course, Jews had special ration cards and were only allowed to shop between 4:00 and 5:00 in the afternoon. And then other regulations came.
We were not permitted to go to the barber or use hairdressers, to buy or subscribe to newspapers. We had to hand over jewelry, gold and so on, and were not allowed to have pets anymore. Well, we had a little dog, Tommy, a wire-haired terrier.
We found a good home for him, but he was specially trained. When you gave him a treat and said, “From Nazi,” he didn’t take it, and if you said, “From Jew,” then he took it. And of course, my mother could shop other times. Whenever nobody was around, a decent storekeeper, “Well, let me have your husband’s and your son’s ration cards and I will serve you.”
And then of course, pretty soon the star, Jews had to wear a yellow star right here. In fact, they had to pay for this and had to earn over clothing ration cards.
BILL BENSON:
You had to use your clothing ration cards to purchase the yellow stars?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Ration cards, yes. To purchase a yellow star, yes.
BILL BENSON:
And they had to be sewn on very tightly, didn’t they?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Absolutely. If you had a nasty policeman or somebody came with a pencil and tried to get behind it, and so help you, if he did, you were in trouble.
BILL BENSON:
We mentioned in the slide presentation at the beginning, Fritz, this concept of Geltungsjude. Would you tell us about that?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Yes. Geltungsjude means I was considered a Jew. Now, my mother wasn’t Jewish, my father was, but I was raised Jewish. Since I was raised Jewish, my father and I had to wear the star, we’re subject to all rules and regulation decrees, but we’re fortunate to escape deportation. Had I not been raised Jewish, my father would not have to wear the star, neither I have to wear the star. In fact, if there were no children, then the star had to be worn.
BILL BENSON:
Very complicated system.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Yes, certainly, very.
BILL BENSON:
And yet you still had to comply with all the sanctions and demands placed on Jews, but were not subject in the beginning to deportation?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Yes, well, of course later on, we were fortunate there too.
BILL BENSON:
Tell us when the deportations did begin.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
The deportations started in ’41. In the beginning, quite orderly. People who got notification had to list their belongings and then at a certain date, police, usually plain-clothed men, came, closed, sealed the apartment and they had to go to a collection point.
What happened at times, you went to class and your neighbor wasn’t there and you hoped he was sick, but he could have been deported. One day, my mother…it was in 1943, school closed. I remember my final report card, actually a very good one.
But I still remember, reason given why it was the final report card, and I quote, “Because of the ordered dissolution of the Jewish school system,” and the teachers, pretty soon, were deported. In fact, the teachers…I didn’t realize that the teachers at this time were everyday heroes. They came every day, in the face of imminent deportation, to teach us.
The school was an oasis for us. They taught us. We didn’t know what they were doing, that we owed them a great debt. Now, when we’re more mature, we realize what they did. And of 35 in the class, I would say about 5 survived. Three were Geltungsjudes like me—other two went hiding and one came back from concentration camp.
BILL BENSON:
Fritz, your father had lost his job much earlier. How were you able to make ends meet? How were you able to, essentially, get by and survive?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Well, my good aunt—not only food, but everything from birthday party to shoes. A growing boy, really, without my good aunt, I wonder what would have happened.
BILL BENSON:
Do you remember if your parents told you much about what was going on, the reasons why? What was your understanding of all of this?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Well, actually, we didn’t talk too much. Actually, you lived from day to day. When the deportations started, we actually we, knew something bad was going on, but actually we were ready to be deported too. We had our rucksacks ready. Well, at the beginning it was just resettlement, but we knew…at the beginning we could send cards, even occasionally a food package.
We got a card back, “Thank you very much. We are well.” That’s it. But then no cards, and we realized something was going on. We didn’t quite know what. But at that time, we lived from day to day and hoped for the best.
BILL BENSON:
Fritz, when did the Allies begin bombing Berlin?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
It was actually 1940 and there too, going to school, of course, we went to an air raid shelter, and you were sitting in the air raid shelter and hoped. On one hand, you hoped the “all clear” would come as soon as possible; on the other hand, if the “all clear” came after 1:00, school started two hours late and classes last only 35 minutes. We were children of two minds—we hoped it would last just ten minutes longer if we can have a short school day.
BILL BENSON:
Again, as kids you told me that you would go and collect the aftermath of the bombs and shrapnel.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Yes, and we would exchange them.
BILL BENSON:
You were able to continue in school to 1942, when the schools were closed, as you mentioned. Then you went to work and it wouldn’t be long after that before you would have your first close call.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Actually, yes. One day, my mother accompanied friends to the collection point for deportation. The SS men were, “Oh, what are you doing here?” “Helping the Jews.” “I bet you, you have a Jewish husband or something. Okay, tomorrow, they are to report at the collection center downtown.” It used to be an old people’s home.
The next morning, my father and I reported and we were put in a room with ten other people. There were some mattresses and they were sitting. And then I’d mention, the commandant was the notorious SS captain from Vienna, Brunner, called to Berlin to speed up things, and he did not permit us to lie down during the day.
He used to get up and try to catch us. And the regular police guarding the building and went ahead and said, “He is coming! Get up! Get up!” Noteworthy—had they been caught, the least what would have happened—Eastern Front. After a week, I was told: “Down for interrogation with Captain Brunner!”
I remember my father prepared me for the ordeal, like, “Fritz, don’t show an attitude, no hostility, answer question fully but don’t volunteer anything.” I still remember down in the office, I was sitting behind a chair. The German SS at his side, learning how it’s being done, actually tried to catch me right away, “Your mother is Jewish?”
“No.” Well he asked me some questions and then, “Out you go and you’re going to report to a decent job.” And I went outside and to my surprise, it’s my father and we stepped out in the street—sigh of relief. The date I remember exactly: January 24th, 1943, my 16th birthday. And after that, I had to work at a factory.
BILL BENSON:
Fritz, tell us just a little bit more about Brunner.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
He was…he actually had been called in to really expedite the deportation and interrogation. I was exceedingly lucky to get by without violence and so on. And in fact, he’s probably still alive someplace.
BILL BENSON:
And he worked closely with Eichmann, didn’t he?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Absolutely, with Eichmann. Eichmann called him to Berlin to show the German Gestapo how it’s being done.
BILL BENSON:
After that, after your interrogation on your 16th birthday, as you mentioned you went to work in a factory.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
In a factory, but only for a short time. We worked for the Air Force. One morning, it was Saturday, door opens, SS officer comes in. “Out, everyone.” They put us on trucks and drove us to a former dance hall and there we stayed. Actually we were interviewed by some plain-clothes criminal police, with a friend of mine, and they let us out.
They shouldn’t have done it, but they let us go. “Get out of here, we don’t want to see you.” And friend and I stepped out in the street, 8:00 at night, breaking the law. It was forbidden for Jews to be in the street after 8:00. This was not a written law; word by mouth.
Well, next morning I went home. My father had been picked up to another factory. My mother had been away with her aunt. I sent a telegram, saying it would be wise if you came back soon. Ration cards had to be picked up at the end of the month. It was on Saturday; Monday, I went to get the ration cards.
At the ration card office, everyone wears a star, picked up in a van, sent to a collection point. It was the collection point where I had become Bar Mitzvah, confirmed, some years ago. And there I was sent to another collection point downtown and it was Rosenstrasse.
It belonged to the Jewish community, and there was the husbands and children of intermarriages. And they put us in a room—15, 20, no mattresses—and there we spent our time, speculating what would happen to us, and standing in line to use the bathroom because the facilities were insufficient. What happened after a week, we were told, “Released.”
BILL BENSON:
You were in there for a week.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
For a week. After I went downstairs, to my surprise, I found my father. We had to wait until employees of the Jewish community filled out the release slips and then we had to be signed by the commandant, Sergeant Snyder, and I still remember my father walking ahead of me and he looked at us and then he sneered, “A judge you have been? Then you certainly have ruined the lives of many people.”
“Well,” said my father, “I hope not,” and we stepped out. And why were we released? We didn’t know it. Our room didn’t have a window, or no window to the front. While we were inside, there was a demonstration by the non-Jewish wives, some husbands too. They demonstrated, demanded our release.
First the police came and tried to scatter them. They reassembled and the SS actually came. They had machine guns. They came again and again, they didn’t move, and you can see from the diary of the Minister of Propaganda and Folk Enlightenment, Goebbels, he said, “What’s going on, that’s not a good time, we’ll do it at a later time, particularly right in 1943 after the Battle of Stalingrad.”
They let us out. There is actually a film, the movie Rosenstrasse. It’s dramatized, but still gives an idea of very much what happened. After that we had to work at labor gangs, cleaning up after air raids.
BILL BENSON:
That demonstration by the wives and some husbands, that was extraordinary, though, wasn’t it?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Absolutely. The only one in the Third Reich, the demonstration.
BILL BENSON:
So you began to work, Fritz, on work details and work gangs.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Work details, of course. Some classmates, we worked…..Now you can imagine you are very protected. Now suddenly, work gangs. You can imagine we had to be told the meaning of quite a number of four-letter words, which came in very handy, because later on, when I worked in the factory in St. Paul…
BILL BENSON:
St. Paul, Minnesota.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
St. Paul, Minnesota…tried to teach me certain four-letter words, hoping I would use them and embarrass myself. Didn’t work. Those words were of Anglo-Saxon origin, Germanic, and very similar to the German.
And of course, we worked there; there were lawyers, engineers, and they said, “The young guys don’t learn anything. We have to do something about it.” So we had a kind of school. They came with a wheelbarrow. While it was being filled, you were given a question in English, geography, Latin.
When you came back, you had to have the answer. I still remember while my wheelbarrow was filled up, I was asked, “When you come back with the empty wheelbarrow, you will name the Great Lakes of the United States.” Of course, you all know those, don’t you?
BILL BENSON:
Fritz, in the wheelbarrows, you were cleaning up after the rubble from bombings, right?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Bombings, yes. Moved from place to place. And you see a lucky, good-luck stone. One day, when a wall came down I was under it. Well, I got injured, but I’m still here. Hair doesn’t grow up here, but I’ve had good luck.
BILL BENSON:
If I remember right, you were on one of your work details when a bomb hit pretty close to you, didn’t it?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
No, that was later on.
BILL BENSON:
Okay. We’ll come back to that. You at some point on these work details, you were told that you were going to be sent now on, I think it was a catastrophic mission.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Yes. At that time, we had been bombed out twice and we lived at the Jewish hospital, but every morning I went to work with the labor gang. One morning, there were some Gestapo outside: “You’re hereby into the truck. It’s a catastrophic mission.” Well, I didn’t know.
Well, after a while, the truck went to the headquarters of… one of the Gestapo headquarters, Eichmann headquarters. Eichmann, notorious for the leading force behind deportation. And there too, I was lucky. The building had taken a hit and we were to clean up.
And my immediate supervisor was a young lieutenant. He didn’t belong there—always polite, never an antisemitic word. Strange. And I guess, one day, working, suddenly Eichmann is coming. Every Jew in Berlin knew who Eichmann was and I wondered, “Now how would he look?” and there he came, ordinary.
Nobody would have noticed him in a crowd. He came right next to me, standing, giving some instruction, and went away. And there too, we were working at times when guarded by SS guard, changed every two hours. One was very nasty, always harassed us.
The other short, red-faced. I still see his face. Never talked to us. Whenever he took a break, he found something interesting across the street. The man was making a point of not harassing us. How did he get into the SS? I sometimes wonder.
BILL BENSON:
That experience you had working at Eichmann’s headquarters after it was bombed, that would be of interest to U.S. authorities after the war, wouldn’t it?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Yes. Before I immigrated, a U.S. officer wanted to know, “Ah, you worked there? Now tell us exactly, whom did you see? What…” And I could tell him something, the guys were very nasty. Eichmann’s deputy Günther was running around with a shepherd dog, cursing and trying people taking a break and so on.
BILL BENSON:
And the people that interrogated you from the U.S., they were the OSS, which was the forerunner of the CIA?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Yes, exactly.
BILL BENSON:
As it’s obvious to all of you, humor is important to Fritz, and you mentioned to me that humor, really in some ways, sustained you. Give us an example of some of the jokes that you folks would tell each other.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Absolutely. Without the jokes, I wonder how we had done it? Well, you know about Goebbels, Minister of Propaganda and Folk Enlightenment, one of the leading forces. Well, one day he had the bad luck to fall in the River Spree that flows through Berlin. Young man comes, pulls him out.
“Oh, my boy, I thank you so much. You saved my life. What can I do for you?” Well, he said, “I’d like to have a state funeral.” “Why a state funeral?” “Well, if my father finds out I pulled you out of the river, he’s going to kill me!”
Or an SS man to a Jew: “I’m going to shoot you, but I’ll let you go if you can tell me which one of my eyes is glass.” “Ha,” said the Jew, “that’s easy. It’s your right one.” “How did you know that?” “Well, the glass eye, it looks so human.”
Or, you all know what a substitute is. Well, “When will the war be over?” “When the British eat rats and the Germans eat rat substitute.”
BILL BENSON:
Fritz, that humor that sustained you, of course, as the war dragged on, conditions in Berlin, from what you’ve described, became increasingly awful, and here you still were working on the work gangs, your father was working.
How, at that point, were you able to stay together as a family and still somehow manage to get by? And tell us about those conditions. I think food became increasingly scarce—it already was scarce, but became scarcer.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Yes. Well, my father and I worked the labor gang, my mother in a factory sewing uniforms. Well, what we did, of course, we lived all together in one room, had been bombed out, had to move together, Jews, closer and closer. And there were mice.
In the morning, they chew the bread, and they were, “Oh, mice were here. Just cut off piece,” and still ate. And what did we do? While working, we talked about menus, what we would eat afterwards. Of course, the young fellows didn’t know what the older fellows were talking about.
And again, you lived from day to day and hoped. If you were religious, it helped too. And again, my good aunt, I remember one day we met and she came with food and just then one of the neighbors, a big Nazi, came and what to do. “Well,” my aunt said, “Ah, good evening, Mr. So-and-so. The young man is out helping me carry, you see.”
BILL BENSON:
Fritz, several times you were caught not wearing your star. How did that happen and what happened to you?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Actually, one time. Of course, we had to move to smaller apartment and had stored some of our household items in another attic of the house. I went there to pick up something and of course, I took off the star. It wouldn’t have been a good idea to show people that a Jew had stored something.
Well, I walked and suddenly stopped. When I stopped, I could tell SS, Gestapo, you could tell on the way they acted. Why did he stop me? “Well, what is a young guy doing out of uniform? Huh?” Well, I told him I had certain papers stating that I was excluded from the army, but of course, he knew right away I should have worn the star.
Well, what happens now, I knew, and a friend got caught without it, but he almost was deported. I was wondering, “What is he going to do?” Well, he looked me over for quite some time. I don’t know for sure, but I think he was deliberating whether my German or my Jewish blood was predominant. And he handed me my permit and turned around. Lucky.
BILL BENSON:
As the war came to a close, Fritz, Berlin was being bombed into rubble and yet, they still had work projects for you, and you told me about what they had you working on in literally almost the closing moments of the war.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
One closing moment, we were working close to SS barracks and one day, to our great joy, we saw the SS pushing trucks. Well, we knew, if the SS, if they don’t have gasoline anymore, then the demise of the Third Reich must be of hand, really schottenfreud.
And then, something else towards the end, the Russians were already on German soil, the British, Americans had crossed the Rhine, they put us to a special detail to build the foundation of Berlin, a new Berlin after the war. But only for one week, and then we were again detached to the southern part of Berlin to build Panzer, tank obstacles.
We dug ditches, put in iron bars into the ground. Well, after 24 hours, let us go. Before we left, we looked at our handiwork and said, “How long will it take the Russians to get through here?” Well, we decided 31 minutes. Now why 31 minutes? The Russian tanks will come through the obstacles, stop. The crews will laugh for 30 minutes, it will take them one minute to get through.
Now probably, something else happened because Marshal Konev commanded one of the armies that occupied Berlin—one for the east, one from the south. Marshal Konev came in very fast from the south. In fact, where we had stayed was much street fighting. They couldn’t get to the Jews. In some way, maybe we helped in the liberation of Berlin—we didn’t do a very good job with those obstacles.
BILL BENSON:
I’ve read, Fritz, several accounts of the Russian assault on Berlin and what life was like in the devastated city of Berlin in the months following the war. Tell us what it was like for you and your family once the Russians had taken Berlin.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Well, actually, it wasn’t all rosy at that time, of course. The occupying powers took turns at supplying food. One month, the Russians, meaning black bread; another month, Americans, British, white bread. Of course there was no heat or water and we went into the woods (Berlin is surrounded by woods) and we went out there to get our own firewood.
And suddenly the lights went out, and the electricity, and what we know, well, it was over. Even if the way out of the tunnel was a little more steep, and of course we got care packages, army rations at that time. One was a beef care package, enough food for two men for 24 hours, everything cigarettes.
By the way, cigarettes at that time were currency. All cigarette brands were welcome. But I still remember, the most valuable was Camel followed by Lucky Strike, Chesterfield, Pall Mall, Phillip Morris and at the end was Raleigh—even that was welcome.
And at the time, it was in early ’48 when I went to the boat, before we went to the boat coming to the United States, I told, “Ladies and gentlemen, once you set foot in the boat, a cigarette is just a cigarette.” That was it.
BILL BENSON:
I think you told me, out of your rations, you could swap a single Lucky Strike for a carton of Raleighs.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Yes…not quite so.
Bill BENSON:
Not quite so dramatic?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
But cigarettes, absolutely. And of course, I went back to school. At that time, the occupying powers, there were two things they stressed: theaters (music), and schools. We started with the courses, but what to do with little electricity or heat? Well, I took parts of the subway that were working again and I did my homework criss-crossing Berlin in the subway.
BILL BENSON:
Because it had electricity?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
It had electricity and it was warm.
BILL BENSON:
And it was warm. Fritz, were you mistreated by the Russians?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
No. They didn’t believe us when they came in, of course. They said, “All Jews, [clicks tongue].” But we showed them the star and someone lived close by knew Russian and he explained it. It wasn’t very nice, but actually the troops that came, the front troops, were decent, but later on, they came afterwards and frequently misbehaved.
BILL BENSON:
But you had to prove that you were a Jew?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. They didn’t believe it.
BILL BENSON:
Sanitation was horrible, wasn’t it?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Yes, of course. It was pretty bad because it was so cold since there was no heat. Sewer lines froze inside and out. Well, if you lived outside Berlin… but you lived in the city, it was pretty bad. Well, not very delicate but I could see people with little packages, depositing them in front yards and in the parks, which was all right as long as it was cold, but when the spring came, enough said.
BILL BENSON:
Fritz, you mentioned to me when we talked one time that once you were liberated, you had thoughts of revenge against the Germans.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Oh, yes. Oh we would say, “Just wait. What we will do to So-and-so, what we will do to…” we wouldn’t lower ourselves. We didn’t, no.
BILL BENSON:
In fact, you ended up, if I remember right, when you went back to school, there were ex German soldiers taking classes with you?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
No, actually what happened was they had special courses for those and for Jews and that we were out…we had school closed three years, ’42 through ’45, and soldiers or Germans that couldn’t finish high school. In the beginning, of course, Jews on one side, the soldiers on the other.
But then the Germans realized the Jews are just ordinary people and we realized not every young German man is a Nazi, and after a while, it worked out. It was quite difficult to get teachers that were not tainted with Nazi, but we went back to school, quite difficult. Can imagine after all those years again Latin and English and mathematics, but we did it.
BILL BENSON:
Fritz, it would be several years until 1948, when you decided that you would come to the United States. Your parents decided to stay in Germany. Tell us what that was like for you and how you managed to get here.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Things were getting better in ’47, but I decided that it was not my duty to rebuild Germany and I make steps to United States. Before I left, my father told me, “If I were ten years younger, your mother and I would go with you, but what can I do? Law over there is based on old English law; here it’s old Roman law. I couldn’t do anything, but you go.
“But, Fritz,” he said, “I hope you will choose a profession that is not limited to one country like law.” Well, I followed that advice. I became a veterinarian.
BILL BENSON:
You were just 21.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Twenty-one on the boat.
BILL BENSON:
On the boat—your 21st birthday on the boat. What was that like for you, to leave your family, your parents, behind?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Well, I realized…I had read about United States. People had left before. Some were quite successful, others had a rough time, but you see, I was young, optimistic. I said, “Let’s give it a try. I’m going to do all right.”
BILL BENSON:
What happened when you came to the United States? What was it like for you?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Well, imagine suddenly all light and window full of goods that could be sold, and something else—next to the mailboxes, there are stacked packages, and I want to know, “Nobody is going to take those packages?” “No,” they said, “that would be a federal offense, not worth the risk.”
And I was very grateful to my teachers. My English, not perfect, but at least I could ask questions and I could order a meal. I went to the movies and I was very fortunate.
BILL BENSON:
How quickly did you get to St. Paul, to Minnesota?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Well, at that time, various Jewish communities agreed to take so-and-so many people, refugees, and I was called in and said, “Well, you have a choice between Detroit and St. Paul, Minnesota.” I had read quite a bit about Minnesota, St. Paul, and I chose St. Paul, although I knew that Minnesota had only two seasons—July and winter. But I went there and I was fortunate.
BILL BENSON:
Fritz, we have some time to turn to our audience and ask them if they’d like to ask you some questions, and I have a bunch more in case you don’t. But I’d like to ask if anybody out there would like to ask Fritz a question.
If you do, please make it brief, as brief as you can. I will repeat it before Fritz responds. Do we have any questions? The gentleman over there. [Man asks question] The question is, “Some Jews were arrested and sent to concentration camps but your family didn’t. Would you say some more about that?”
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Well, in 1938, before the deportations at random, my father was just lucky it didn’t happen. Some of the teachers were, others weren’t, in ’38. Later on, of course, the deportation because my mother wasn’t Jewish, they deferred us and we were lucky what happened at the Rosenstrasse, let us out.
BILL BENSON:
Lucky stone. Yes, ma’am? [Woman asks question] The question is: “Why do you think there weren’t more demonstrations like the one that occurred at the Rosenstrasse?”
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Others? Well, my father used to say, “The German is very good at battle, lots of courage,” but what is called “civil courage” is not common in Germany. It’s the authority.
BILL BENSON:
Plus, I’m assuming, Fritz, they would have…there was a unique set of circumstances, you said, at that time. They probably would have been put down very violently.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Yes. It’s always easy said, “Why didn’t you take up weapons or something?” Circumstances. Or you could do was passive resistance. They’re going to get us, we’re going to get through this.
BILL BENSON:
Yes, sir? [Man asks question] The question is: “What kind of people did you look up to in your community at the time when you were young, when you were a child?”
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
When I was young…well, I was raised among lawyers. I remember on my father’s birthday there were ten or fifteen lawyers and I was five years old. It was, “Oh, my boy,” and then had to say hello. And I still remember one very distinguished judge. He never said, “Hello, how are you?” always said, “What do you have to say in your defense?” But he perished.
BILL BENSON:
Fritz, speaking of judges, tell us about your father’s readjustment when he resumed his career as a judge staying in Berlin. What was that like for him?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Well, of course he went back on the bench and his time, seniority, and, was counted for salary and seniority. You had to get…it was strange and look what happened. I remember, during our time with the labor gang, one of the overseers was a very decent man, but he had been a petty criminal before the war.
My father said, “If he ever should have come before me, I would have to excuse myself. What can I do? I couldn’t send this man to jail.” He said certain things had to be considered.
BILL BENSON:
Okay, other questions? The young lady here. [Girl asks question] The question is: “Did you see Hitler in person?”
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Yes, I saw him in person, and how did I see him in person? At the Olympic games, my father’s cousin lived on the main street that led to the Olympic stadium, and Hitler came by and we stood on the balcony and there, we saw him go by.
BILL BENSON:
Thank you. Ma’am? [Woman asks question] The question is: “Did you see your parents again?”
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Yes, I went back. I saw them.
BILL BENSON:
Did they come here, Fritz?
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
In fact, they came even here. In fact, I was stationed in the Army very close with the biological warfare laboratories in Fort Dietrich in Frederick, and while I was here, they came and visited, yes. My father very proud, of course; I’m an officer.
BILL BENSON:
I’ll bet he was very proud. I think that’s probably an understatement. Any others? We’ve got a couple more. Back there? [Person asks question] The question is: “What did you feel like when the war finally ended, after all that you’d been through?”
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Actually, it took time to sink in. Actually, we really don’t have to look out anymore, don’t have to wear the star, nobody is going to come and try to go with a pencil behind the star. I will tell you, it took about, oh, probably a couple of weeks to sink in.
BILL BENSON:
Okay, we had one right here, I think? Yes. [Person asks question] “Was your mother given a harder time because of her marriage to your father?”
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Oh, yes. Many of the non-Jewish women were asked to divorce, but no, well, you see, the women didn’t do it. The women didn’t. In the German national anthem, there’s a sentence that talks about German loyalty. Well, this was German loyalty. They did not budge. Those are the women that demonstrated despite their being…it was strongly suggested that they divorce their husbands.
BILL BENSON:
With your parents staying in Berlin, did many Jews stay in Berlin, or in Germany, for that matter? I mean at the end of the war.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
End of the war. Well, there weren’t too many left. Quite a number stayed. It depends. If you are a lawyer, of course, probably you stayed. Some, I would say, probably the majority, left if they could.
BILL BENSON:
Okay, we have a question here. [Woman asks question] “Do you fear a rise of antisemitism again?”
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
I will tell you, the young generation, quite hopeful. At Wannsee, there was a place where the Nazis met to decide what would happen to the Jews, how they would handle the Jewish person, and now there’s now a kind of museum. And I went out there and there was a high school group and I followed that group to see what are they telling the children.
And I must say, they told them how it was. And efforts are being made. If you go to Berlin now, at the main subway station, there’s a sign listing all the concentration camps “sites of horror” or certain parts of Berlin there are signs on the lampposts: “At such-and-such date, our Jewish fellow citizens were permitted to sit down on certain benches. On that-and-that date, they were not permitted to keep pets,” and so on. I think that’s an honest effort made. Yes, always some, but on the whole, I must say the young generation, quite hopeful.
BILL BENSON:
One more question, right here in the front row. [Girl asks question] “Why did you decide to become a veterinarian?”
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Very simple: I like animals.
BILL BENSON:
And somewhat appropriate, given that the Nazis had taken your pet dog when you were a kid, yes.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
Naturally.
BILL BENSON:
Fritz, I want to thank you for spending this time with us today. Before we conclude, I’ve got a few things to say. Fritz is going to go over here by the podium, so those of you who still have questions, please come up and talk to Fritz, meet him, whatever you’d like to do, but he’ll be over here on the side.
And I’m going to turn back to Fritz in just a moment to wrap up our program, but I want to thank all of you for being here. Obviously, in one hour, we only get a glimpse of what Fritz and his family went through. I’d like to thank you for being here and to remind you that we have a First Person program each Wednesday until August 27th and in June and July we’ll also have them on Thursdays.
Our next First Person is next Wednesday, April 2nd, when our First Person will be Mrs. Katie Altenberg, who is from Vienna, Austria. After German troops invaded Austria, Katie and her family would be arrested and sent to a concentration camp. Katie and her brother would then be sent to a children’s camp.
Her father escaped from the concentration camp and was able to smuggle his two children out of their camp and find refuge in a safe house in Budapest. Eventually though, they would be sent to a ghetto, but would be liberated by the Russians in 1945.
So if you can join us next Wednesday, or any other Wednesday or a Thursday in June and July, please do so, so come back. It is our tradition at First Person that our First Person has the last word. And with that, I’d like to turn to Fritz to close our program today.
FRITZ GLUCKSTEIN:
It has been my good fortune to come to the United States and I’m ever grateful for the help received and the opportunities given to me. I value my American citizenship very highly, and I’m being asked what message I have to impart—but I always say it the same:
Don’t do unto others what you don’t want done to yourself. And then, do things now, pay that visit, write that letter, make that phone call, and if you have a dream, go after it now. And, if you have two bottles of wine, drink the better one first.
