MuseumDESCRIPTION:
China has recently appeared rattled by efforts to link the upcoming Beijing Olympics to China’s strong support for Sudan’s genocidal government. Dream for Darfur’s Jill Savitt explains why.
TRANSCRIPT:
JERRY FOWLER: My guest today is Jill Savitt, Director of Olympic Dream for Darfur, which links the upcoming Olympics in Beijing, China, to the crisis in Darfur. Jill, welcome back to the program.
JILL SAVITT: Thanks so much for having me, again.
JERRY FOWLER: Well, I’m anxious to hear an update on the campaign, but first I wanted to start with an online press conference that China’s special envoy for Darfur held recently. He went on the government’s Web site there, Liu Guijin and he said that holding China responsible for Darfur is “without justification,” that was his quote, “without justification.” And he said that people who do try to make that link are not viewing China’s role objectively and instead, they are “looking at the Darfur tragedy through lenses colored by ideological bias.” So let me ask you first, why did China choose to do this at this point in time?
JILL SAVITT: I think they’re very concerned about how China is being viewed, and they have been connected to Darfur through the Olympics. And so, they know that the connection has already been made, and they try and disavow it, actually quite often, which makes us know that they’re worried about it. So, I think this is a sign that the Chinese government understands that, and out of nowhere, I think in their minds, the Darfur issue might threaten to sully their Olympics.
JERRY FOWLER: And that would be a huge loss for them, I guess, in the sense that this is kind of their coming out party to the whole world.
JILL SAVITT: It is their coming out party in some ways, and they are very concerned about the impression that they make. It’s an unbelievable investment, too. It’s- economically, China is very wrapped up in the Olympics, and now knows that that can be- that whole apparatus of the Olympics can be tarnished. And their investment is huge, and they are opening up to the world and other companies of the world to see China, so it’s huge on two levels for them. Yeah, they have a lot invested.
JERRY FOWLER: So the very fact that they would be responding so publicly and going out of their way to try to disavow this issue, obviously shows that their cage is being rattled, so to speak. But, let me ask you about the substance. I mean, so their argument is that, “Hey we’re not responsible. We’ve done what we can to get Sudan to do the right thing.”
JILL SAVITT: Well, I guess it’s, when do you think you’re done doing all you can? When the problem is solved. And the problem has not been solved. So that’s not all that China or the rest of the world can. The- the politics are very interesting. Khartoum has been able to tell the entire international community to go away, and the international community has responded and done that. How is that possible? The world voted to have a force deployed to protect people. It’s not there. It’s not there by the schedule that these people set. China and the other members of the Security Council should be upset about that. They said something should be done, and it has not yet been done. How is that possible? And, we believe China still has this relationship with Sudan that would allow them, if they really wanted to see civilians protected on the ground, those civilians would be protected.
JERRY FOWLER: So, if China, wanted to do more your contention would be, they can.
JILL SAVITT: Absolutely they can. And they can do it privately. They can do it through the United Nations, and they can do it in their role as Olympic host.
JERRY FOWLER: And what would be- I think you kind of alluded to this, but I just want to make sure I understand, especially if you say they can do things privately, then what is the measure- what bar do they have to cross in order to get people like you off their back?
JILL SAVITT: Security on the ground for civilians. That could take the form of the protection force outlined in resolution 1769, which they voted for. As an interim step, a civilian police force in the camps, just protecting the people in the camps would be very important. And making sure that people who are in refugee camps, they are- they are battered people, that they shouldn’t be the object of violence. You know, they have a lot of- they’re starving. Their housing is terrible. They’ve been there a long time, they’re traumatized. But, at least, they shouldn’t be shot at or killed or hurt. So, a civilian protection force in the camps would be great, as an interim step.
JERRY FOWLER: And basically what I hear you saying is that basically the test that the Chinese have to pass is a results based test, as opposed to just saying, “Well, we’ve done what we can and we’re working really hard.”
JILL SAVITT: Oh, absolutely. We are only looking at results on the ground. Security in Darfur. Is there- you cannot have in our view, it is inconsistent to have the host nation of the Olympics, the Olympics transcends borders, it’s a game that represents peace. There’s a responsibility of the host to promote those values. That host cannot be, at the same time, sponsoring also a genocide. They are, and the Chinese government-- it’s well documented, how they are underwriting the killing campaign. So, we think those two things are inconsistent and we will keep up the pressure until there is not the likelihood of that, of those two things being juxtaposed.
JERRY FOWLER: Well, let’s talk about the pressure, then. Give us an update on the Dream for Darfur campaign. I think last time we talked, which was a number of months ago, you were in the planning stages for an international torch relay to basically be an alternative to the official torch relay. How has that gone?
JILL SAVITT: It’s been an enormously productive campaign in terms of pressure on China. But we learned so many things that we hadn’t anticipated. There is out in the world an anti genocide movement, and survivors of other genocides are the really powerful heart of that movement. And so we went to countries, we’ve now been to 5 countries that have experienced genocide, and we meet with the survivors of the genocide there, and those people commemorate their experience by calling for an end to the Darfur genocide and calling on China to make that happen. And they’re very powerful testifiers to what happens when the world looks away, because, of course, genocide is the violence, but the legacy of genocide in any society is a terrible scar and a permanent one. So they really do testify about why genocide should stop, and why Darfur should stop. And we didn’t- I don’t think we realized the depth and the passion of that movement. So we went to the Chad-Darfur border, and then Rwanda, and then Armenia, then Germany and then Bosnia. And in each of those places survivors of that genocide and then of other modern genocides were there together, and called on the government of China to do everything in its power to bring peace to Darfur and it was very powerful. And this group of survivors is ready to do more.
JERRY FOWLER: Those could be very powerful voices. I mean, certainly, that’s one of the things here at the Holocaust Museum that we found is that our- our most powerful advocates are the Holocaust survivors who speak from the experience of their lives.
JILL SAVITT: Yes, and in terms of Holocaust survivors, they’re all over the world. And so, in the places that we went there was, often, I think almost in all cases, a Holocaust survivor, which, as you know, the term genocide comes out of that experience. It’s very powerful to have all of those people there. And, we got press in all of those locations. And I think the Chinese embassies in those locations were well aware of what we were doing. And I don’t think they were thrilled about it.
JERRY FOWLER: Now, one measure of, I guess, success, or at least that you’re having an effect, would be if the Chinese government attempted to put obstacles in your way. Did that happen anywhere, where diplomatically they were saying to governments, “Well, it would be better if you didn’t have this happen?”
JILL SAVITT: Yeah, it’s happened in two distinct ways. One is just directly. I’ve met with the Chinese consulate in New York, where I’m based, and they have asked us just point blank to please stop what we’re doing. We met with the ambassador, the the Chinese ambassador to the United States. He also regretted what we were doing. He said he regretted it. So we’ve heard directly from Chinese officials that they would like us not to be doing this. And, then, they’ve also gone about it another way, which is putting pressure on the government where we’re hosting the event to put up some obstacle, either deny us a permit, or not let us do it, or put pressure on them to cancel it, and we had that distinctly in Armenia. And we’re facing it, also now, in Cambodia.
JERRY FOWLER: And so they’re trying to get the Cambodian government to not let you do the torch relay?
JILL SAVITT: Not where we had planned it. So they’re not saying, “Don’t do it at all.” But we had planned at a torture center, at what was a torture center, which is now a memorial in Phnom Penh and so that’s where we’re going to do the event with survivors of the Khmer Rouge and they are going to be our torch bearers. We have a Rwandan who is going to be there, and a Sudanese from Darfur there. And it’s going to be a very powerful, moving-- it’s more of a ceremony than an event or a rally. They are very somber. We light the torch. Everyone says a similar poem as we light it, which is about the need to end genocide everywhere for all time. And so they’re very powerful. Quiet. They’re not demonstrations in what you’d think of as a demonstration. You know, they’re ceremonies.
JERRY FOWLER: They’re not raucous.
JILL SAVITT: Not at- oh gosh, they’re quiet. Usually there’s a torch procession in silence. So it’s a very quiet event, actually. They are beautiful. They are on YouTube. Anyone who wants to look at them, all of the torch lightings that we’ve done so far, on YouTube, if you search Dream for Darfur, you’ll find them.
JERRY FOWLER: Obviously one of the engines, shall we say, of the Olympics – in spite of the-- kind of ideals of international athletic competition – is basically money, and the money comes from advertisers. It’s big business. What is the role that American companies, in particular, are playing in basically supporting these Olympics?
JILL SAVITT: They are underwriting it. They are putting it on. They are really the sponsors of it, that’s what they’re called. And they pay enormous sums of money to be the official beverage or the official photographer of the Olympics, and they get to advertise a great deal. And it’s not just the advertising, it’s a much bigger proposition for these companies. They want access to the Chinese market. They want goodwill among Chinese people. There are a lot of them. And so that is the next frontier for these companies. And it has made them, unfortunately very quiet, just deafening silence on what they’re willing to say about the fact that that Olympic host is underwriting the genocide. They have- most of them have refused to say anything and they were asked to say- asked to do very modest things. We put out a report card where we graded them on a series of things we asked them to do which were other public or private communications. And they- either they did it and wouldn’t tell us, or they didn’t do it.
JERRY FOWLER: Presumably, if they did it they would tell you or what’s the use of doing it.
JILL SAVITT: I think a lot of them didn’t want to tell us because they may have done something but they don’t want the Chinese government to know they did. They really are concerned about their reputation vis-à-vis the Chinese government.
JERRY FOWLER: And so can you give us an idea of-- was there anyone who got a passing grade on this?
JILL SAVITT: Yes, yes. General Electric got a C+ because they...
JERRY FOWLER: And that was the head of the class, a C+?
JILL SAVITT: C+ was the best. C+, 2 C’s, 2 D’s and 13 F’s.
JERRY FOWLER: And I assume that there were some companies that got straight F’s.
JILL SAVITT: There were companies that just ignored us entirely, never even responded to a letter from us. They just ignored us entirely. We gave points if the company appointed a point person within the organization to talk to us. You could have gotten points for that.
JERRY FOWLER: And so, is there a role for consumers to play in terms of putting pressure on these companies, to get a better scorecard, or get a better grade, I should say.
JILL SAVITT: Yeah, there’s- well we hear from the campus movement of the Darfur community, the group STAND, which is just a fantastic organization, they are organizing demonstrations at the corporate headquarters. So people should check out StAND and get involved with that, if they’re interested. Also, we’re going to put out a second report card, and we’re going to encourage people to look at the grades. And then, just to show that they wish these brands had done something more than silence, we’re going to ask them to turn off the commercials of certain sponsors. Turn off certain sponsors’ commercials during the Olympics, just to send a little message, that we didn’t appreciate that. That was- that was not brave.
JERRY FOWLER: Now, a couple of- well maybe it was more than a couple of months ago, but some time in the not so distant past, President Bush said publicly that he planned to attend the Olympics.
JILL SAVITT: Yes.
JERRY FOWLER: And I know that you’re not calling for a general boycott of the Olympics, you think they should go forward. But, do you think it’s appropriate for President Bush to go and attend the Olympics, while this issue of Darfur is unresolved?
JILL SAVITT: I really am against a boycott in every way, shape or form of anybody. I don’t want any of the companies to boycott the Olympics. I would not want a government to boycott the Olympics. So, certainly not the head of state of the United States. Rather, I wish he would use the fact of his going to talk with China about this issue. And to urge China in its own best interest, to help him as another member of the permanent five of the Security Council, to do something about Darfur. He should rather use it as a bully pulpit. He- you know, the Bush Administration called it a genocide. They’ve been-- they’ve been, you know, that’s very vocal. They’ve said that. They’ve said they’re doing their best. They decry the violence. But they- again, I ask the question that we started with, how is it that Khartoum is able to defy the entire international community that says it wants to address Darfur?
JERRY FOWLER: And the answer is?
JILL SAVITT: China.
JERRY FOWLER: So, looking forward to, I guess we’re now what, a little under seven months out here in the latter part of January before the Olympics start. What will you be doing both between now and the beginning of the Olympics? And then, do you have any thing planned for during the Olympics?
JILL SAVITT: We have something planned for during the Olympics. We’re going to do a series of demonstrations during the Olympics. One is going to be a live broadcast from Eastern Chad. We want to make this idea of split screen of you can watch the Olympics on TV, and you can actually watch what’s going on in Darfur, either on your computer, and hopefully we’ll get this broadcast in some very popular place, on TV. But you can-- you can put those two images next to each other, and see that China is sponsoring them both. And so, we’re planning a great week long series of original programs every day. Mia Farrow will be in the camps as our correspondent and others will be joining her. We’re not announcing a lot of it now, just the fact of it, because we want to be able to announce who’s coming all the way along, just to keep putting the pressure on about this demonstration that’s going to go on during the Olympics. Up until then, we’ve got our Cambodia torch. There’s the official Olympic torch. We did a symbolic torch relay, but the Chinese government is doing an official Beijing 2008 torch relay. There are going to be protestors at each of those events for Darfur. Again, the idea of those images next to each other. And then, there’s going to be in February, a worldwide Chinese embassy action where people around the world who we’ve been meeting with and talking to are going to show up on Chinese embassies and consulates on February 12. And the great Save Darfur Coalition is organizing that.
JERRY FOWLER: And the significance of February 12 is that that is the six month point, right?
JILL SAVITT: Yes, just about.
JERRY FOWLER: And let me ask you this, you mentioned the official torch relay, and it goes all over the world. Is it coming to the United States?
JILL SAVITT: It is. On April 9th it will be in San Francisco.
JERRY FOWLER: So people should mark their calendars and to go the Bay Area on April 9th, there will be things organized.
JILL SAVITT: There’s going to be-- that’s right.
JERRY FOWLER: And then, what about at the Olympics, I suppose it could be very difficult. China is a police state. And they are certainly making a show of trying to be more open and they are going to have a lot of visitors coming in for the Olympics. Is there anything you’ll be able to do kind of on site?
JILL SAVITT: You know, it would be- it would be not wise to probably announce that one before hand. It could prevent you from doing it. So, we think there will be people at the games who will want to represent people from Darfur at the games – spectators, athletes – to make some sort of symbolic gesture, of course, respectful and nothing- they wouldn’t do anything that was rabble rousing. And again, our campaign has been one of silence, but I’m sure that something will happen during the game itself.
JERRY FOWLER: In one way or another, the whole world will be watching.
JILL SAVITT: They will.
JERRY FOWLER: Well, Jill Savitt is the Director of Olympic Dream for Darfur, and Jill thanks so much for taking the time to be with us.
JILL SAVITT: Thanks so much.
NARRATOR: You have been listening to Voices on Genocide Prevention, from United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. To learn more about preventing genocide, join us online at www.ushmm.org/conscience. There you’ll also find the Voices on Genocide Prevention weblog.
