MuseumDESCRIPTION:
Mossaad Mohamed Ali, a lawyer, an environmentalist and a human rights defender based in Nyala, South Darfur, is the coordinator of the Amel Center for the Treatment and Rehabilitation of Victims of Torture. In an interview with Jerry Fowler, Mossaad talks about his involvement to provide legal advice and representation to hundreds facing human rights violations in Darfur and the situation there as it exists today.
TRANSCRIPT:
JERRY FOWLER: My guest today is Mossaad Mohamed Ali. He is a lawyer and human rights defender based in Nyala, South Darfur. And as coordinator of the Amel Center for Treatment and Rehabilitation of Victims of Torture, in 2006 he shared the Olof Palme Prize with former United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan. The Prize recognized their work to protect human rights, peace and security. Mossaad welcome to the program.
MOSSAAD MOHAMED ALI: Thank you, welcome.
JERRY FOWLER: It is very good to have you here. I understand you are in the country originally to attend a conference of human rights defenders organized by Human Rights First and the Carter Center in Atlanta. And I was wondering how did you get involved in human rights work to begin with?
MOSSAAD MOHAMED ALI: My involvement in human rights activities it was since I was in at the University and I studied law at Cairo University in Khartoum and I was a member of human rights society in the organizations for four years and I was also involved in the political activities and the student activities and I was a member for the democratic front for the Sudanese students.
JERRY FOWLER: What time period was that? What years?
MOSSAAD MOHAMED ALI: Well, that was from 1989 up to 1992- ‘93.
JERRY FOWLER: That must have been a very difficult time because the current military government of Omar Bashir took power in 1989.
MOSSAAD MOHAMED ALI: Yes, that is true and that was the reason he came to power and also at that time they were very aggressive and we as students at that time, we are just speaking on behalf of the students that ensure the fundamental rights and freedoms for the students rights organizations to join societies and also we are calling for democratic transition in the whole country. And as I said at that the government was just coming to power and they were very aggressive against all the activists for human rights or political. They targeted most of them and me others, my colleagues, the students and colleagues also have been arrested and detained with others. But for us, maybe at that time because we are just seeking this freedom and also to ensure these rights, that maybe we joined this human rights society to ensure that all the students have the different rights inside the university and also in the public life.
JERRY FOWLER: It must have been very dangerous to be-- I mean at that time you were saying the government was aggressive and they had these things that were called ghost houses where a lot of people disappeared, political opponents of the regime. Were you ever arrested during that time period?
MOSSAAD MOHAMED ALI: Yeah I have been arrested during that time. But, the students they did not kept them for long times. But at that time they focused on the political activists from outside the University also are joining the political parties. But even the students are also some of them have been arrested and detained but they release them after weeks or months. But the others they may remain for months and some of them for years.
JERRY FOWLER: Was there ever a time where you thought “This is not worth it. It is too dangerous.”?
MOSSAAD MOHAMED ALI: Yes sure, it was very dangerous and risky.
JERRY FOWLER: But what kept you going, why did not you, I mean I am sure that you could make a good living as a lawyer and not be involved in politics. What keeps you interested in human rights?
MOSSAAD MOHAMED ALI: Well maybe the responsibility and the commitment and maybe because of my character, I have never think on that before but for me, the issue of justice and equality and the freedom for me it is very fundamental. Not only for me and also for the others and maybe that that is why we are active politically and also in the field of rights I need to fight for change or for better life and to ensure rights for the others. You know that it is risky. But you know if we just say that it is serious and risky and just keep silent, the others also did the same thing actually nothing will change at all. And, also they are maybe one of us he visit he is not alone in this field. Also you have the police fighting besides you. They give you support and encourage you to go ahead since you believe in these values and so that is why we keep doing the same thing despite the fact that it is risky and serious.
JERRY FOWLER: So there is solidarity with the other people your colleagues in Sudan. How important is it that there are people outside of Sudan who are promoting human rights who are- for example you come here on the auspices of human rights first. How important is the work of people internationally?
MOSSAAD MOHAMED ALI: Well I think the work of the work of the people international I think it is very important and know the solidarity and particularly I know in some countries which is human rights are violated and particular of example I write the speech all right to expression when it was completely confiscated so you know in this time the solidarity and interaction is international and organizations or communities I think it is highly needed at least to make sure that your voice can reach to outside to those who can put pressure in the government whether including the officers or governments to make the needed change inside.
JERRY FOWLER: Do you think the government like, the current government in Sudan, is responsive to pressure from outside? Are they sensitive to it?
MOSSAAD MOHAMED ALI: Well according to my experience so far I do not see that they have respond to the extent that we are expecting. We know that also they are so many countries also try to put pressure on Sudan you know to change its policy. But also I do not think that they have succeeded. Maybe because they do not have enough influence ok on Sudan, you know, to make it change its policy but also its thought that I mean, within the current situation in Sudan and the crisis of Darfur, sometimes I think there are some countries have control to make the situation or the opposition of Sudan more flexible than before. I think one of these countries maybe like China and assume that the acceptance of Sudan with the hybrid forces which was established last month. I think China by way or another has control on that because before that Sudan was challenging the international community. He refused that they would not allow any of the international troops to be deployed in Sudan and also it is the same thing with the international criminal court. So maybe the process itself depends on the influence of the States that press Sudan.
JERRY FOWLER: Well I wanted to focus in on Darfur. You are originally from Darfur and now are working as I said in Nyala in South Darfur. One thing that always interests me and I think is difficult for Americans to totally understand is the relationship with different tribes or ethnic groups in Darfur. And I am wondering, as you were growing up-- you are a member of the Berno tribe-- Did you have a sense that that made you different than other tribes? Was there a strong sense of tribal identity?
MOSSAAD MOHAMED ALI: Well maybe because I born and grew up in a city specifically composed of several tribes not only from Darfur but from other parts of Sudan. The relations in the city mainly built on whether it is from the childhood or neighborhood or school or and so on. But the relations I think in the villages, maybe it is a little bit different because it is mainly based on this tribal element. And also the affiliation to the tribe also it is very strong there. So maybe the sensitivity maybe it could work in the relationships between the villagers is very strong, so it might have its own impact between the relationship of them.
JERRY FOWLER: One thing, when we read in the press about the conflict in Darfur, we often see it characterized as Arabs versus Africans. But my understanding is that this idea of an African identity is quite a new thing. It is relatively new. Is that true?
MOSSAAD MOHAMED ALI: Pardon?
JERRY FOWLER: The idea of an African identity that for example the Berno tribe or Fur tribe or the masalit tribe would be characterized as African as opposed to being Fur or masalit?
MOSSAAD MOHAMED ALI: Well you know Sudan is very complicated country and also a very complicated area. And most of the Sudanese you know as they are considered as Africans. It is true that they are Arab ethnic groups but also they have mixed with the natives and also with the African population to some extent. So there it is culture rather than to be race. But also despite the fact that it is culture but you know maybe this culture which may distinguish between the African and the non-African. Maybe the general features of the Sudanese are the same. But those who are belong to the Arab ethnic groups as I say that they just feel that they are best or maybe they have the superiority because they are just have this white or brown blood or maybe because their facial are a little bit different than the Africans. So, in Darfur it is also the same. And the African tribes are there with their cultures and their language and so on, the same thing the Arabs also as well as have their own language and their culture and the other things. So, it is just like that but it is not that sharp.
JERRY FOWLER: Distinction?
MOSSAAD MOHAMED ALI: Distinction. Yes.
JERRY FOWLER: Has it gotten sharper over the course of the last five years or ten years?
MOSSAAD MOHAMED ALI: Well maybe the past five years yes. Maybe after the intervention of the government in this crisis and when they tried to exploit the existing tensions between the tribes by recruiting the Arab militias and armed them against the Africans because they just seem that most of the rebels or the supporters of the rebels belong to the African tribes so maybe they just use this tensions and use the Arab against the Africans. After these mass atrocities it has become sharper.
JERRY FOWLER: The distinction between the groups?
MOSSAAD MOHAMED ALI: The distinction between the two groups yes.
JERRY FOWLER: Tell us what the situation is today this period that you are talking about where the government came in and starting exploiting the differences was in 2003, 2004, 2005-- tremendous amount of displacement of people, a lot of violence. What is the situation on the ground today?
MOSSAAD MOHAMED ALI: Today also there is ongoing violations against human rights in particular against the civilians and this is because the conflicts or the military operations between the government and rebels are still ongoing. And there are some civilians affected by this conflict and has resulted in this new displacement. Also this is the clashes between the rebels themselves. This is besides some attacks also from the government forces on some villages. Maybe it is not like the year 2003-2004 and that is because the villages’ population has fled, there are just a few populations that remain behind in some areas but however the situation is still as it is and the movement of the population from place to place. Also it is very difficult because the militias are still there and the arms also are still on the hands of the militias. This is beside the arms, guns, and the other armed militias who are actively in Darfur right now.
JERRY FOWLER: Yes, you mentioned earlier that recently last month the United Nations authorized this hybrid peace keeping force and that the Sudanese government has agreed to accept. It seems like it may be quite some time before that force actually is organized and put on the ground. But do you think that force can help stabilize the situation?
MOSSAAD MOHAMED ALI: Well we know it is just expectations of the people when you get there from the international community to protect them since the past three years. Also there was the African union, also they were there. And also the mandate is to protect the civilians and this is beside the military, these are agreements and also to ensure safe return for the internally displaced persons and refugees and the people may be at that time they were happy to some extent and they may believe that maybe the African union can protect them and put an end to the conflict and they can return to their villages in dignity. But unfortunately they are frustrated because the AU failed to play their role perfectly. And now they just you know turn to the international community because as it believes that the international community has the power and has the capacity to protect them. So now it is just depend on what is the international community is going to do to show the deployment of the forces in time. And also if the members did fulfill their obligations and commitment by providing the needed forces and also the other financial and logistic technical support to this mission and also to deploy them without any delay because you know the people are still suffering and they cannot wait you know for a long time to wait for the implementation of this mission. So I think if the international committee is serious enough then I think they have to speed this process in order to rescue the people in Darfur.
JERRY FOWLER: Mossaad Mohammed Ali is the coordinator of the Amel Center for the Treatment and Rehabilitation of Victims of Torture in Nyala South Darfur. Mossaad thanks for taking the time to be with us.
MOSSAAD MOHAMED ALI: Oh it is my pleasure, thank you so much for hosting me here. Thank you so much.
NARRATOR: You have been listening to Voices on Genocide Prevention, from United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. To learn more about preventing genocide, join us online at www.ushmm.org/conscience. There you’ll also find the Voices on Genocide Prevention weblog.
