MuseumDESCRIPTION:
New York Times Columnist Nicholas Kristof returns to the program to report on his sixth trip to the Chad-Darfur border as the violence is now spilling into Chad. As addressed in his recent columns, Kristof discusses the spillover of violence, the Chadian rebel movement, the possibility of an assault on the government of Chad, and the reaction of the French. He also talks about his current contest for college students.
TRANSCRIPT:
NARRATOR: Welcome to Voices on Genocide Prevention, a podcasting service of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Your host is Jerry Fowler, Director of the Museum’s Committee on Conscience.
JERRY FOWLER: Our guest today is Pulitzer Prize winning, New York Times columnist, Nick Kristof. He just returned from his sixth trip to the Darfur region, and he joins us today. Nick, thanks for being with us.
NICHOLAS KRISTOF: Delighted to be on.
JERRY FOWLER: You just came back from Chad and filed a series of very disturbing reports that indicate that the genocide, the violence, is now crossing over into Chad.
NICHOLAS KRISTOF: By chance I happened to go on this trip to exactly the same areas that I had gone to two years ago when I first became aware of what was going on. At that time two years ago, I had been incredibly impressed with these Chadian villagers because nobody else was helping the people of Darfur, but when they were flooding into Chad, these poor peasants in Chad who had nothing themselves were sharing what little they did have with the Darfuri refugees. They were sharing their water, their food, their homes, and I thought that in a world that was largely ignoring the refugees of Darfur, those Chadian villagers were just incredibly gallant and benevolent. Now, all these terrible things that were happening in Darfur are happening to them, and they themselves are becoming the victims as well.
JERRY FOWLER: How many villages did you see that had been destroyed?
NICHOLAS KRISTOF: A bunch; you drive along the border there and there are a lot of villages that have been burned, there are other villages that have not been burned but they have been attacked and abandoned, and then there are some villages that have either been attacked or people have been killed on the outskirts and as a result, many people have fled but some are staying. There is some variation in what you see and the response, but there is now a vast area along the Chad-Sudan border that is getting essentially no foreign assistance because it is deemed to dangerous and where people are living in sheer terror.
JERRY FOWLER: For those whose villages have been destroyed or who have fled their villages, as you say, in fear, where are they going? Are they congregating some place else?
NICHOLAS KRISTOF: They tend to be going inland, and they also tend to be gathering in market towns, and there is some sense that the market towns offer a little bit better protection because they are bigger. It is also true that the same number of Janjaweed tend to be involved in any given attack. You tend to get no more than five hundred people, and so people think, correctly, that if five hundred people attack a village with one thousand villagers, then they are worse off if five hundred people attack a town of twenty-five thousand people. Also, I must say that there is some growing evidence that the Janjaweed realized that they over-reached when they destroyed market towns within Darfur because then they found that they had no place for their own families to sell things, and no place to go to buy a new saddle, or to buy food for themselves, so increasingly they seem willing to leave a remnant element of black African tribes in market towns so that they will have somebody to trade with. It is not mercy, but simply has a mercenary quality to it, but the upshot is that these larger market towns are a little bit safer than the small villages.
JERRY FOWLER: Are the attackers people who are crossing over from Sudan, or are they also being organized within the Arab communities inside Chad?
NICHOLAS KRISTOF: No, they are essentially coming over from inside Sudan. Some of them are originally Chadians who were recruited some years ago and some more recently to work with the Janjaweed and that was both because when it was organized, it was gathering up Chadian Arabs as well, and also because now the Janjaweed has kind of joined forces with another Sudanese proxy force, and that is a group of Chadian rebels under a commander called Mohammed Nour whose aim is to overthrow the Chadian government, and they are working hand in hand. It is hard to distinguish at this point between the Janjaweed and these Chadian rebels, but they are all operating from within Sudanese territory, all coordinating at times with the Sudanese air support and it is all very much a function of what Sudanese government policy is. In fact, it is a little hard to be sure what the strategic significance of slaughtering people in some small villages is, but I think that the aim is essentially to force the Chadian government to send its troops to try to protect these areas, and thus to result in having less of a Chadian military along the basic invasion corridor that these Sudanese proxy forces would take if they wanted to really formally invade Chad and try to overthrow the government in the Capitol.
JERRY FOWLER: You are suggesting that this could be a prelude to an assault by the Chadian rebels?
NICHOLAS KRISTOF: Absolutely. I think that there is a quite significant chance that Sudan will launch what is in affect, a real invasion of Chad and nominally it will be by these Chadian rebels, but they are armed by the Sudanese government, they are paid by the Sudanese government, they are protected by the Sudanese government, the Sudanese Vice President recently consulted with the head of the rebels, they are entirely a pawn of the Sudanese government. I should say that they did try, in December, to invade Chad, and they presented it as having been a faint to test the border. It was an attack on a town called Adrei, but in fact, as far as we can tell, it was a real attempt at invasion that was repulsed, so now they are gathering force in an attempt to try again.
JERRY FOWLER: If they do try again, with Sudanese support, it is actually somewhat of a replay of history in that the President of Chad Idriss Déby came to power in 1990 by invading from Darfur with the support of the Sudanese regime.
NICHOLAS KRISTOF: That is right, and in fact, his predecessor, President Habré had come in through the same route. That is a traditional invasion corridor; it is a traditional way of toppling the government in N'Djamena. We do not have a clear sense of how strong these Chadian rebels are, but what little information we do have—one Reuters reporter, Opheera McDoom has indeed been to his base, and interviewed him, and others have seen the rebels as well, and the sense is that they are actually pretty well armed, and that there are a lot of them. They have a lot of heavy machine guns on pick-up trucks, there are a lot of people there, and they just might succeed in overthrowing the Chadian government. It would, perhaps, come down to whether or not the French were willing to use their military power to intervene and stop the invasion.
JERRY FOWLER: That was one of the things I wanted to ask you about. The French do have a contingent that is in that area of Eastern Chad based in Abeche. Have they had any reaction to these Janjaweed attacks that you saw the results of?
NICHOLAS KRISTOF: They have done more than anybody else, but still, almost nothing. When I was driving along the border, just about the only other moving vehicles I saw the whole time I was in that area was a French military convoy of troops based in Abeche, and driving along the border in an area that nobody else would go to. It was a little bit unclear what they were doing there. They did not encounter any resistance, of course, because the Janjaweed would see the French and immediately melt away. It was a substantial convoy. It was useful to have them there along the border to show a presence. I must say that they did not go in the even more insecure area beyond Aday. They were between Adrei and Aday and in fact, leaving—at the point I met them—the area of greatest uncertainty where the Janjaweed were making daily attacks, so they could do more, but at least they have sent somebody to go to that border area and demonstrate some kind of a presence.
JERRY FOWLER: Did you get a chance to talk to them and find out what their orders are?
NICHOLAS KRISTOF: I chatted with them, but I did not get a clear sense of what their instructions were, and I think there is a real deliberate ambiguity there. The French have not said what they will do if there is another invasion. During the first invasion, this attack at the end of December, French aircrafts buzzed along overhead monitoring the situation but did not actually bomb anybody or strafe anybody. It is seen as something of a warning. The sense I get is that there has been no decision yet made by the French, and ultimately it will be up to President Chirac to decide; does he attack an invading force or not? It would sure seem to me to be useful for the French—in conjunction with the United States—to say ahead of time, “Yes, we will,” that if these Chadian rebels invade, that the French will use air power to bomb and strafe the invading forces because I think that would essentially reduce the chance that an invasion would take place. The stakes are huge. Chad is a country that has had a long civil war itself, but now has a bit of stability. An invasion could trigger a new civil war that could last many, many years. There also are at least two major refugee camps with tens and tens of thousand of Darfur refugees right in that invasion corridor, and I think if you did have the Chadian rebels and the Janjaweed passing in that area, it would be very tempting for them to use their machine guns in those refugee camps and kill thousands and thousands of people. We have a huge interest in trying to stop the invasion from happening.
JERRY FOWLER: Quite apart from the possibility of an invasion from Sudan, my sense is, and all of the reports that we are getting is, Chad is becoming more and more unstable. The President’s ruling base is fractured, and some of them have become rebels; there was an attempted coup just recently, though it is hard to tell how serious that was, but it is clear that there is a lot of instability there. Did you do some snooping around in N'Djamena to find out what the situation is with that?
NICHOLAS KRISTOF: It is very difficult to know. As you say, there have been signs of instability, including attempted coups, including defections from the leadership, from the army, and from his own faction within the Zaghawa tribe. My hunch is that some of that is a function of Sudan paying people. It is very common there for leaders to pay factions to join them, and my gut tells me that Sudan is doing that, but another factor is that there are a lot rumors that President Déby is quite ill, and perhaps dying. Now, there is no real evidence for that and he actually looks pretty healthy, but as long as people believe that he is dying then that creates this rush to try to secede him and creates and instability as well.
JERRY FOWLER: You mentioned, obviously, the refugee camps that are not very far from the border, strung all up and down that Chad-Sudan border area. My first question is, how far are these attacks extending into Chad and are they starting to threaten the Darfuri refugees who are in those camps?
NICHOLAS KRISTOF: At the moment there have not been any attacks on those camps or even terribly near them, but the attacks have gone up to about forty miles inland. They are very substantially inland. The camps themselves are not so far inland. In fact, there is one Bahai, farther north, very close to the border, but that is in an area that is more rebel controlled and is not an invasion corridor. The biggest risk is to two camps, Farchana and Goz that are right on this invasion corridor. What has protected them so far is the fortified town of Adrei is right on the border there and is blocking the invasion. That is the town that was attacked in December. Right now, I would say that the camps themselves seem safe, but if Adrei goes, and a formal invasion happens, then those two camps, particularly Farchana and Goz will be at tremendous risk.
JERRY FOWLER: Did you go by those camps and talk to the refugees there and get a sense of what they anticipate might happen?
NICHOLAS KRISTOF: I did, but people really do not know. There is no good source of information, but there is tremendous disquiet. People know that there have been attacks in Chad because people are streaming into Goz camp now at a rate of about 150 a day.
JERRY FOWLER: These are Chadians?
NICHOLAS KRISTOF: No, these are Sudanese. They are not accepting Chadians, but most them are Sudanese who had fled to the Chad-Sudan border area, on either side of the border two years ago, and now when these areas are being attacked, they are actually deciding that they cannot stay there and they have to go further to the camps themselves.
JERRY FOWLER: What about humanitarian workers? I think you mentioned that there is not much humanitarian access at the place where these attacks are going on, but are they starting to make plans to possibly even pull back from the aid that they are giving to refugees?
NICHOLAS KRISTOF: At the moment, on the Chad side of the border, there are not any plans to cut back to those camps. There is growing nervousness about the instability even in those areas that they do serve, and there have been kidnappings, car-jacking, and that kind of thing. My sense is that actually those are not the Sudanese government’s fault, but in some cases the rebels’ fault, and in some cases they are just the result of banditry. There is real apprehension about continuing what they do serve, and the biggest problem is that you do have tens of thousands of people living in areas that get no help whatsoever. Kids are going hungry; they are getting no help. One example of what is going on is that I talked to two boys who in the earlier stages of the Darfur attacks, there parents had been killed, so they were left orphans and their uncle looked after them and took them to an area on the Chad-Sudan border. Then, in attack a couple of weeks ago, their village was attacked again, their uncle was killed, and now these two boys are just all alone. They were living under a tree. Somewhere they have an older brother who may or may not be alive; they have no idea where he is. These families have already been through so much, and now they are being pushed out and attacked again.
JERRY FOWLER: Let me shift gears a little bit. You have announced a contest on your web site to take a student with you on one of your future trips. Tell me about that.
NICHOLAS KRISTOF: I thought it would be great to take a student along to Darfur, to the Chad side. The lawyers at the time promptly vetoed that idea. I think that one of the things that the United States needs much more is practical experience on the part of its people in encountering foreign civilization and experience with other peoples. I found that the richest part of my student life, in my college days many years ago, was indeed hitchhiking and backpacking around the developing world, and I learned an awful lot more from those trips then I did in the classroom. I was trying to figure out way to try to extend that experience to other people and also to produce material that young people would find more engaging and more relevant to them. I had the thought of bringing a student along to then blog on the Times’ web site with a target audience being young people, and that kind of evolved into a contest, and so indeed, the information is at www.nytimes.com/winatrip and the deadline is April 20th and at that point I will pick somebody, and over the summer or latest early September, we will go somewhere in Africa for about ten days, and the winner will indeed blog on the New York Times’ web site, and also video blog for mtvU.
JERRY FOWLER: So this is going to be in conjunction with mtvU?
NICHOLAS KRISTOF: Yes. Originally it was going to be just the New York Times’ web site, but then they offered to have the winner also do a video blog for them. From my point of view that is great because it is a larger audience, and obviously, particularly youthful.
JERRY FOWLER: This part of the New York Times’ website, is this the part that is free or do people have to be part of New York Times Select to get there?
NICHOLAS KRISTOF: To enter the contest, anybody can do that—www.nytimes.com/winatrip—anyone can access that. I am not actually sure yet where the person’s blog will appear on the Times’ web site; whether that will be open access or whether that will be restricted. Good question, and I do not know the answer.
JERRY FOWLER: I vote for open access.
NICHOLAS KRISTOF: I vote there too.
JERRY FOWLER: What are you looking for? For the listeners of Voices on Genocide Prevention, what should they emphasize in their applications?
NICHOLAS KRISTOF: I want someone who is a good communicator because I want them to be able to do a compelling blog. People have been applying, or telling me how great they would be, and they keep emphasizing how much travel experience they already have, and how they had a great time in Ecuador or Zambia or whatever. I should say that I am not particularly looking for people who have already traveled a lot. I would like to get someone who has not seen poverty in the way that it exists in Africa and for whom that will be a new experience and who can convey what they encounter with a real freshness. Do not feel that if you have not traveled that it is a handicap because it is not at all. Finally though, I want somebody who can go through some pretty grueling experiences and is not going to complain because it is going to be a difficult, hard slog. The cockroaches in the hotel will be huge, there will be no electricity, the plumbing will be awful; people should not expect a French Riviera type trip.
JERRY FOWLER: This is not the glamorous life of the foreign correspondent. This is the under side of it.
NICHOLAS KRISTOF: My theory about travel is that the memorableness of an experience is proportional as the square of the suffering involved, and this will be a very memorable experience.
JERRY FOWLER: With that I know you have to run. We will let you go. Nick Kristof, thanks so much for joining us.
NICHOLAS KRISTOF: Thank you Jerry.
JERRY FOWLER: Our guest has been Nicholas Kristof. He is the Pulitzer Prize winning columnist from the New York Times, and he has just returned from his sixth trip to the Darfur-Chad region.
NARRATOR: You have been listening to Voices on Genocide Prevention, a podcasting service of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. To learn more about the Museum’s Committee on Conscience, visit our website at www.committeeonconscience.org.
