MuseumDESCRIPTION:
Baba Gana Kingibe, the Special Representative of the African Union in Sudan, provides an update on the situation on the ground through the eyes of the African Union. Ambassador Kingibe discusses the recent spillover of violence into Chad and the clashes taking place between the rebels and government along the border, the possible transition of African Union troops to a United Nations peacekeeping mission, and the ongoing peace negotiations in Abuja threatened by the splits within the different rebel movements.
TRANSCRIPT:
NARRATOR: Welcome to Voices on Genocide Prevention, a podcasting service of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Your host is Jerry Fowler, Director of the Museum’s Committee on Conscience.
JERRY FOWLER: Our guest today is Baba Gana Kingibe. He is the Special Representative of the African Union in Sudan, and a former Minister of Foreign Affairs from Nigeria. He joins us from Khartoum. Ambassador Kingibe, welcome to the program.
BABA GANA KINGIBE: Thank you. Thank you for having me; it is a pleasure.
JERRY FOWLER: Let me begin by asking what is the security situation right now, on the ground in Darfur?
BABA GANA KINGIBE: The security situation in Darfur, I must say has deteriorated in the months of January and February this year. It seems that a reinforced rebel movement, especially the Sudanese Liberation Movement, has been on the offensive. They have been engaging the government troops in various locations. The government troops themselves have also been engaging the rebels, and there is increased intertribal tension also, even within the Internally Displaced Persons camps. Around the end of January, there were clashes between the Okomati and the Dinka tribes in Internally Displaced Persons camps, and so on. I would say that the security situation is pretty bad; it is pretty bad around Sharia, the usual places, and the two areas of operation. It is a massive concern. In a number of places, humanitarian workers and NGO staff had to be withdrawn, and they had to temporarily suspend their operations. I would say that the security situation has deteriorated.
JERRY FOWLER: We have also been hearing that the violence is starting to spill over into Chad, both because of Janjaweed incursions across the border and because of Chadian rebels who are attacking into Chad from Sudanese territory. How serious is that?
BABA GANA KINGIBE: It is disturbing; it is serious. The areas on the western side of Darfur bordering Chad, as you quite rightly said, have witnessed cross-border skirmishes. Some Darfurian refugees who have sought sanctuary in Chad, including new displacements, have in fact crossed over into Darfur after some 40,000 people have been involved in this. It has added to the growing deteriorating security situation overall in Darfur. It is a matter of worry and concern, but I am aware that efforts are being made and that the offices of Libya are trying to at least deal with the Sudan-Chad border problem. I do hope that these efforts will succeed in quieting down the situation on the border, but for now it is disturbing.
JERRY FOWLER: Is your African Union force—whether in coordination with Chadian military or with the French troops who are in Chad—able to provide any security along the border?
BABA GANA KINGIBE: No, as you know the African Union forces have their mandate only in Darfur. We do not have a mandate for any activities across the border. There has been a meeting at the Foreign Minister level today, in Tripoli. I am not sure of the conclusions right away but I do think that probably they will look at, perhaps, expanding the mandate of the African Union troops to include monitoring the border situation, but for now, we do not have a role in activities across the border.
JERRY FOWLER: There has been a lot of discussion recently about transitioning the African Union force to a United Nations force, and the Peace and Security Commission of the African Union was supposed to meet on March 3rd to issue a request to the United Nations to do that, and that meeting was postponed until March 10th. Why was the meeting postponed?
BABA GANA KINGIBE: As you can imagine this question of transition from the African Union force to a United Nations force has raised a lot of concern and controversy. It is a matter of on which the Sudanese government in particular has very strong views, and strong objections quite frankly. It is something that really requires very careful reflection and negotiations. I must say that the goal so to speak has been taken out of the hands of the African Union by the international community and they are running away with it and giving it all sorts of spins as to the nature of this transition. Some, in fact, going beyond the United Nations and calling for strong NATO involvement and so on, and I think the Sudanese government are reacting very strongly against this. They would not feel comfortable with any force that is not African; that is not operating under the auspices of the African Union, but we are engaged on the issue. Of course, the capitols in Africa think the matter is being discussed. I do hope that on the 10th some resolution of these contentious issues will be made and we will see how we carry this forth. As the African Union, we only have the responsibility to lie out if we like the issues before the Peace and Security Council. The critical issues being, one, that the funds for this operation are going to run out shortly, and we cannot continue the operation in Darfur without a fresh injection of funds. Secondly, as you know that this is a mission that we started with some 360 troops, ministry observers and protection forces. It has now grown to something like 8,000 without really a commensurate, if you like, development of the skills on the part of our forces to deal with forces of this nature, and also the new tools to the nature of the issues we are dealing with on the ground in Darfur. Be that as it may, we are confronting, amongst ourselves, the government of Sudan to see how best we can proceed, but this is a very difficult issue, and I do hope that the ministers who will be meeting on the 10th, will be able to bring their wisdom on how best to address the very serious and real concerns about protection, about stabilizing the security situation, and so on, and the concerns on the international community, as well as the real concerns of the government of Sudan that this operation remains within a context that they can live with.
JERRY FOWLER: That raises the question, when you have a situation where you have a large number of civilians at risk, and you have a deteriorating security situation, and you have a government—in this case the government of Sudan—that is unwilling and unable to provide security to those civilians, how much pressure will the African Union put on the government to get them to allow a more robust protection force to be put on the ground?
BABA GANA KINGIBE: I really believe that a lot more can be done, not just by the government of Sudan, but also the rebel movements as well to improve the situation, really without the need, perhaps, for an intervention of a more robust kind, but for the time being obviously why the issue is now on the table is because, as you put it, they are unable or unwilling to address the concerns of the international community including the African Union about protection and about stabilizing the security situation. I am sure that part of the engagement between now and the 10th, when the Peace and Security Council meet is perhaps to what extent the government of Sudan and the rebel movement are now willing to address these matters in a more determined and committed way, and in a more credible way. So far, all the assurances that we have received from all the parties related to the conflict in Darfur have not come through in terms of fulfillment of commitment, so it is an issue that obviously going to be seriously addressed.
JERRY FOWLER: Let me ask you this; one of the things that you have said that the government of Sudan most objects to is the presence of forces outside of African forces, and yet, just recently, Secretary General Kofi Annan has requested that NATO provide close air support to the African Union force that is on the ground. What is your view of that request?
BABA GANA KINGIBE: Frankly, I would in all seriousness, advise due caution. We should not dismiss the concerns of the Sudanese government, and concerns which are not addressed, these concerns are shared by a cross-section of the population, especially in Darfur. I really think that whatever is going to be done, must be closely discussed and negotiated with the government of Sudan and carry the Darfurian people and the government of Sudan along. It is a very delicate situation. There are deep emotions. There are deep fears, and of course, there is the impatience on the part of the international community as to the continuing situation on the ground in Darfur which for the most part of 2005 appeared to have been contained, but as I indicated earlier on, from January of this year, we are getting back to these 2004, 2003 levels, and some middle ground has to be found at the end. The bottom line for me is basically how to bring security to the people of Darfur; how to bring to security especially to the Internally Displaced Peoples, and to the villages, and how to curb and contain the rampaging Janjaweed militia by whatever name they are called who appear to be beyond the pale of law. It is a matter to be discussed, and as much as possible, as tactfully and quietly as possible.
JERRY FOWLER: You said that the Janjaweed militias are beyond the pale of the law, and I think the United Nations and other people have documented that originally the Janjaweed were armed, and organized, and trained by the government of Sudan. Is it your sense now that the Janjaweed are beyond the control of the Sudanese government, or do they still function as a tool of that government?
BABA GANA KINGIBE: I would like to believe that the Sudanese government would have now realized the necessity to curb the Janjaweed and the armed militia, but I really think it is the issue of—as we say in Africa—if you launch the arrow, it is difficult to recall it. In some respects, it may well be that the government has lost influence or control over some of these elements, who over time have more or less become bandits, opportunistic robbers, and there is a lot of bad ground, age-old tribal issues that they are trying to settle. The kaleidoscope in Darfur is not a neat one that can be classified as really Arabs and Africans or Janjaweed and Internally Displaced Persons and villages. It is a very complex bunch of issues that are involved. Some of the elements the government of Sudan, I am sure, is in a position to deal with, but I am also convinced that some of it is beyond its capacity.
JERRY FOWLER: The Sudanese government agreed as early as April 2004 to disarm the Janjaweed, or at least bring them under control, and then they were ordered to do that by the United Nations Security Council last year. Have you seen any signs that they have undertaken any efforts to comply with both what they agreed to, and then what was then demanded of them by the Security Council?
BABA GANA KINGIBE: Not really, no, they have not. In fact, they do argue that, how could they when in fact, the rebel movement, on their part, have also been requested to disclose their locations with a view of encamping them and providing secure borders between the rebel forces and the government troops so that the government itself will know how to go about now isolating the armed militia. That is their argument, but the short answer to your question is basically, no; they are not doing practically anything to reign in the Janjaweed.
JERRY FOWLER: Let me ask you about the rebels then. One of the developments over the past few months has been the fragmentation of the rebels. Has there been any improvement in that? Have they improved their ability to work together and agree upon an agenda?
BABA GANA KINGIBE: This fragmentation of the rebel movement did not start with the fragmentation within the Sudan Liberation Movement which is the one that was the most recent to occur. Earlier on, within the Justice and Equality Movement, there had been also fragmentation leading to the creation of others. Now the most serious, of course, is the fragmentation within the Sudanese Liberation Movement, which is the largest rebel group, and there has been a struggle for control, if you like, of the soul of the Sudanese Liberation movement between the Minni Minnawi faction and the Abdul Wahid faction, and they have had clashes, and they have continued to have clashed, and this has further compounded the problem. They agreed when we did broker some kind of a truce between the two factions, at least for the purposes of the peace negotiations in Abuja, and they did agree to work as a team, and they have been working as a team until recently, until in fact, in January, when the problems across the border in Chad cropped up. The Mini Minnawi faction and the Justice and Equality Movement then formed a common platform, and then the Abdul Wahid faction felt left out, and then opted out of this common negotiating team in Abuja. It is really a spiraling situation that is getting out of hand.
JERRY FOWLER: What is the connection between the new instability in Chad and the renewed split between Minni Minnawi and Abdul Wahid?
BABA GANA KINGIBE: As you know, Chad and Sudan share common ethnic groups across the border, and the Zaghawa, who are the main fighting force within the Sudanese Liberation Movement, have their court tribesman across the border, indeed the President of Chad and many members of his government belong to the Zaghawa tribe. Abdul Wahid’s faction on the other hand, is mainly composed of the Fur tribe. That is oversimplifying it, but there are so many other tribes in Darfur—Masaalit and others—that are just as important, but there is an ethnic nexus between the rebel groups of the Justice and Equality Movement and the Minni Minnawi faction, and the co-ethnic groups across the border, and of course, this is playing out partly in Darfur.
JERRY FOWLER: Let’s turn to the negotiations that are ongoing in Abuja. The security on the ground is one thing, but there is an effort to bring about a political solution through negotiations. What are the prospects for progress in the Abuja talks?
BABA GANA KINGIBE: The negotiations in Abuja are being conducted along three themes: power sharing, wealth sharing, and security arrangements. Very good progress has been made in the wealth sharing agreement. Much of the power sharing aspect has been agreed to, and they made some risk business with the security arrangement negotiations. All told, quite frankly, it is possible to have an agreement with appropriate pressure and encouragement from the international community on the parties to reach an agreement as early as the end of March, I would say, but it is a matter of commitment and determination. Provided that other issues outside of the meeting evolve do not cloud the discussions; part of the argument of the government of Sudan has been that now that there is this discussion of transition to the United Nations, this will encourage the rebel movement to hold out hoping to get a better feel under a United Nations umbrella, if you like. Of course, the distraction of this debate about transition has also diverted the attention of the government from looking at the issues on the table in Abuja, but it has also made linkages with these discussions on transition. All told, there is absolutely no reason why we cannot hope for a peace agreement by the end of March. Quite frankly, an agreement in Abuja is what holds the key to the future direction of not only the security situation in Darfur, but also how we can come to grips with the need for protecting the root of the terms of Internally Displaced Peoples, etc. Maybe, with an agreement that is well-crafted, but an agreement that sincerely everybody has bought into, there may not be need for any great, robust peacekeeping operation, but as I say, it all depends on the Sudanese parties, on their commitment, and on how they see the way forward, and whether they really accept that there cannot be a military solution to the problem in Darfur.
JERRY FOWLER: Ambassador Kingibe, thanks so much for being with us?
BABA GANA KINGIBE: You are most welcome.
NARRATOR: You have been listening to Voices on Genocide Prevention, a podcasting service of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. To learn more about the Museum’s Committee on Conscience, visit our website at www.committeeonconscience.org.
